All DotNet Languages Are Equal?

[Joe Mamma]

vb.net, I beieve, can do almost everything delphi can. . .
there is a multitude of things that delphi could do that VB6 cannot.

But this isn't about one language over another, it has to do with the type of programmers who use VB. VB programmers do not have experience with using callbacks. I bet you don't use alot of custom events/delegates in your applications, do you? While you can do callbacks in vb.net, you couldnt safely use the AddressOf operator in vb6 when refering to class methods. This means a VB programmer has an extremely limited scope of experience and probably doesn't understand how to develop robust event driven applications. And windows is an event driven platform.

I bet you have never developed a windows service, have you?

A VBer only knows how to enable and disable menu items, and doesn't understand the beauty of being able to redefine the behavior of a menu item at run-time.

Again. . . VB'ers need not apply.

joemamma

 

[Joe Mamma]

I've never realised that Delphi make any sense. I would choose to learn C++ instead, cos who need delphi then.

The reason we used delphi was that it gave us the robustness of C++ but was less symbolic.

One thing a good programmer must remember is that he must deal with non programmers. When in the real-world, specificlly developing COTS integration applications, he will often find himself interfacing with the problem domain stake-holders.

and efficiency is not just about fast code!!!

you see a non-programming finance analyst can easily understand
//delphi
procedure ProcessFile(MyFile: TFileStream)
var
i: integer;
begin
for i := 1 to 100 do
MyFile.Write( FinanceFunction( i ));
end;

as opposed to:
// C++

void ProcessFile(ofstream MyFile)
{
for ( int i = 1; i <= 100; i++ )
MyFile << FinanceFunction( i );
}

He will know that a TFileStream is a file and what 'Write' does. . .
will he know what ofstream is and that << writes to it?
probably not. I want the stake holder to beable to look at my code and say 'yes' thats what I want, with out my having to do much explainingg as to what I am doing.

Delphi was a great language. Fast! Dependable! Flexible. But no, I am partial to C# for all the reasons I liked Delphi.
Again, learn to program in general, programming language used is just a mater of taste. . . except when it comes to VB. . . which was tasteless


joemamma

 

[dragon4spy]

VB programmers do not have experience with using callbacks.

It is not true. I'm doing that, even subclassing most of the time.

While you can do callbacks in vb.net, you couldnt safely use the AddressOf operator in vb6 when refering to class methods.

AddressOf, normally can't work with class in vb6, but I just do a simple trick to push the limit, to be able to use it in Class. Check pscode.com for my friend code.

This means a VB programmer has an extremely limited scope of experience and probably doesn't understand how to develop robust event driven applications. And windows is an event driven platform.

Event dirven applications? Nah! even a novice vb programmer can do that. Only delphiEr like you think this is wonderful. In VB6, APIs handle much of the works.

Not only windows is a event driven, but also messages driven. VB6 can handle 'em all.

A VBer only knows how to enable and disable menu items, and doesn't understand the beauty of being able to redefine the behavior of a menu item at run-time.

It's so funny this hear this from you, delphiEr. What you want to do with menu in runtime, VB6 can do all. Check the attached SuperCode example. Again, it is a common thing in vb6, but is it advanced topic in delphi?


Ok, You are a really novice in vb6. Before you state anything, try learning VB6. I have attached more things that you migh thought limited in vb6.

Have you ever hiding your app in Win2K or XP? Can you hide your app away from tasklist? Here is how to do that in vb.

 

[dragon4spy]

Here you go, the demostration of Menu.

 

[AlexCode]

Ok Joe Mamma... don't hit me... but I'm a VB programmer!

Yeah, in VB6 we couldn't do much great thing we can now with VB.net, just because there was a basic thing that woldn't let us... VB6 wasn't a real OOP languase...

It's also true that there's a lot, but really a lot, poor code around and 45% its VB... but I really would put my hands on the fire if the other 45% isn't DELPHI .. and I leave 10% off this fight!

What I want to say with this is that no matter what the language anyone uses the easyest languages will always be the ones with more programmers and so with more people producing bad code... but also excelent code.

I'll quote some sentences here:

I bet you don't use alot of custom events/delegates in your applications, do you? While you can do callbacks in vb.net, you couldnt safely use the AddressOf operator in vb6 when refering to class methods. This means a VB programmer has an extremely limited scope of experience and probably doesn't understand how to develop robust event driven applications. And windows is an event driven platform.

I bet you have never developed a windows service, have you?

I asure you that I've already used all that but does that make me a good programmer just for that??
Do the peaople that ear me talking about Remoting have to neal before me cause I'm a good programmer just for that?

To sum it all up. . . VB'ers, learn to program. . . PLEASE! I am sick and tred of having to clean up your code!

I don't mind this... I take money for this so it's good

I just want to pass the idea that no language make good developers... it always work the other way...

Alex

 

[dragon4spy]

Here it is, the limited thing you have just said.

 

[divil]

Time for a generalisation of my own. Every Delphi advocate I have encountered, including Mr Mamma here, has been passionate about their dislike for VB. I have several theories as to why this is, but my favourite is that VB was always a language/environment with a comparable featureset to Delphi, but VB actually has a job market.

VB is very much like Delphi in that it is very much an evolution of a language originally created a long time ago. Pascal was designed as an educational programming language. BASIC was written for beginners to programming.

I find it interesting how someone can register on a forum and, within 5 posts, have attacked one of the major languages supported by that forum so many times.

Certainly nobody who attacks a particular programming language or makes gross (and not to mention inaccurate) assumptions about the people who use it makes it past an interview with me.

Thanks for introducing yourself, Joe Mamma.

 

[AlexCode]

divil at his best!

 

[Joe Mamma]

VB is very much like Delphi in that it is very much an evolution of a language originally created a long time ago. Pascal was designed as an educational programming language. BASIC was written for beginners to programming.

Actually it was 'embraced by' not 'designed for' the educational community. The same qualities that made it ideal for teaching make it ideal for interacting with non-techies in the real world.

I find it interesting how someone can register on a forum and, within 5 posts, have attacked one of the major languages supported by that forum so many times.

But it is such an easy target!

I feel like Fred McMurray, VB is Humphry Bogart and we are reenacting the Caine Mutiny.

Now that is esoteric.

'I tell you, they did steal the strawberries!!!'

Certainly nobody who attacks a particular programming language or makes gross (and not to mention inaccurate) assumptions about the people who use it makes it past an interview with me.

There is nothing inaccurate about my statements.
for Mr. Dragon, who submitted some very neat code that is well documented (bravo!!! do not underestimate the value of good documentation!) you do not understand what I mean by event driven. . . yes you can create events and respond to messages, but you didn't have the event/delegate model until .NET.

Because of this, programmers who only know VB lack experience in a vital technique for building robust applications.

Dragon's code reinforces my disdain for VB. The same thing could have been done in Delphi in 25% the amount of code, and the code would have needed less documentation, because it would have been straightforward and object oriented.

specifically, before .NET, as far as I know, you couldn't do this:

from: msdn.microsoft.com
Design Guidelines for Class Library Developers > Class Member Usage Guidelines > Event Usage Guidelines

Public Class Button
   Private onClickHandler As ButtonClickHandler
   Protected Sub DoClick()
      ' Paint button in indented state.      
      PaintDown()
      Try
         ' Call event handler.
         OnClick()      
      Finally
         ' Window might be deleted in event handler.
         If Not (windowHandle Is Nothing) Then
            ' Paint button in normal state.
            PaintUp()
         End If 
      End Try
   End Sub

   Protected Overridable Sub OnClick(e As ClickEvent)
      If Not (onClickHandler Is Nothing) Then
         onClickHandler(Me, e)
      End If
   End Sub
End Class

If the language couldn't do that, I had no use for it. . . and if the programmer had never done that, I had no use for them. I know this will illicit responses along the lines of 'But I have done similar' or 'but you don't have to do things that way.' and I say to them, 'you have no idea what I am talking about, I haven't the time to explain it - learn to program!!!'

That being said, I love C# and I love the new Visual Studio IDE!!!

Thanks for introducing yourself, Joe Mamma.

Good to be here. . . now for the reason I initially happened upon this site, maybe you can direct me to an answer. . .

I am designing some aspx forms that have a common set of properties and components on them (a template for lack of a better term). I want to add my base template to the list of forms that are available when I select 'Add New Item.' In delphi this was done by saving your template to the code repository. I am sure there is a way to do this in VS, I just haven't been able to find it.

thanks for any help

joe mamma

PS There are plenty of jobs for Delphi developers. . . they are rarely advertised as 'DELPHI DEVELOPER NEEDED'
usually advertised as 'OO/COM DEVELOPER NEEDED'

but delphi is dead now that there is C#.NET

 

[dragon4spy]

but delphi is dead now that there is C#.NET

Yes it is! But to be accurate, "but delphi was dead long ago that there was .NET".

 

[Joe Mamma]

Yes it is! But to be accurate, "but delphi was dead long ago that there was .NET".

Dragon, do yourself a favor and download the trial version of Delphi, if on only for one reason. . .

to look at the source code for the VCL.

Thats one of the things I miss in Visual Studio, I can't trace into the source inside the referenced assemblies.

vb6/vb.net/vb whatever sucks as a programming language. In general , programmers who don't realize that are, in my opinion, not real programmers.

joe mamma

 

[divil]

If the language couldn't do that, I had no use for it. . . and if the programmer had never done that, I had no use for them. I know this will illicit responses along the lines of 'But I have done similar' or 'but you don't have to do things that way.' and I say to them, 'you have no idea what I am talking about, I haven't the time to explain it - learn to program!!!'

What you personally may or may not have a use for isn't really relevant - the point is that your personal feelings aside, VB was and is the most popular programming language around. And no, that isn't just for hobbyists.

VB ensured its success in the business world by moving in to the COM and natively-compiled world with VB5, so developing business objects and entire n-tier systems suddenly became a real possibility. The savings possible using VB over C/C++ were and still are immense.

I'm sure you'll come back saying Delphi offered similar savings, and I won't dispute that because my Delphi knowledge is not broad enough to comment. My only experience is the Delphi business objects I have encountered in the field, and I'll let you know when I do.

This isn't the right thread to ask your Visual Studio question in, but I've a suspicion outbursts like "learn to program!!!" directed at the countless people on this board who make a living writing VB won't do you any favours when it comes to answers.

 

[AlexCode]

I really shouldn't be discussing this anymore but I feel the need to underline a sentence I wrote on my last post... Not that Joe Mamma should deserve any consideration due he's offensive senteces against milions of devellopers but I allways feel some compassion about theese kind of people with so many lack of "mind ilumination".

No programing language make a good developer... But a good developer is the one that can make a good app with any programing language...

Now just to finish... I don't know what kind of education you had/have from your parents but if you keep treating people that don't use/like/believe the same thing you do like this you won't get many friends

Alex

 

[Bodybag]

a Friend of mine specialized in delphi and the strange thing is that he is now using vb.net. I can use either C# ot vb.net and i like them both.Alot of people using vb.net can do C++ as well.I used to program in vc myself and lectured borland c++(dos). You are insulting people who know what they are doing.
VB.net rocks!!!

 

[TechnoTone]

VB is very much like Delphi in that it is very much an evolution of a language originally created a long time ago. Pascal was designed as an educational programming language. BASIC was written for beginners to programming.

Actually it was 'embraced by' not 'designed for' the educational community. The same qualities that made it ideal for teaching make it ideal for interacting with non-techies in the real world.

Not true. See here. "Pascal was was designed, in part, as a teaching language."

 

[dragon4spy]

Dragon, do yourself a favor and download the trial version of Delphi, if on only for one reason. . .

Ok boy! I hated it since I saw it for the first time. Not only did I download for a try, but I also bought it a year ago. Its IDE didn't make me happy. It is truely a waste!

 

[AlexCode]

Just when I though I had nothing more to say on this thread... just this came to my mind...

This is a good thread to earn points on this forum
Nothing usefull will ever come out of this except that

Alex

 

[Joe Mamma]

What you personally may or may not have a use for isn't really relevant - the point is that your personal feelings aside, VB was and is the most popular programming language around. And no, that isn't just for hobbyists.

Well, Ford taurus is the most popular car sold. . .
Would I buy one? no, they suck probably pissed some people off with that one

the FACT is ( note the word fact ) there are things you could not do in vb6 that you could do in Delphi. these things were important qualities a language should have. besides the event/delegate model, the ability to declare variables of a specific class type. before you start saying 'what do you mean? we did that all the time!'

here is what I mean -

TParentClass = class(TObject)
public 
   procedure DoSomething; virtual;
end;

TChildClass = class(TParentObject)
public 
  procedure DoSomething; override;
end;

TMyClassType = class of TParentClass;

TClassProcessor = class(TObject)
private
   fProcessor: TParentClass;
public 
   procedure Run; 
   constructor Create(AClass:  TMyClassType);
end;

and the following constructor for TClassProcessor:

constructor TClassProcessor.Create(AClass:  TMyClassType);
begin
  inherited;
  fProcessor := AClass.Create;
end;

and the following definition for Run:

procedure TClassProcessor.Run;
begin
  fProcessor.DoSomething;
end;

now I could write a program that does this:

var
   ParentProcessor, ChildProcessor :  TClassProcessor;
begin
  ParentProcessor := TClassProcessor.Create(TParentClass);
  ChildProcessor := TClassProcessor.Create(TChildClass);
  ParentProcessor.Run;
  ChildProcessor.Run;
end;

You may ask why this is important, I don't have time to explain, but it is. The flexibility that this gives the programmer is immense. Specifically in creating specialized thread/server classes.

The fact is you could not do that in VB. therefore the fact is, VB was an inferior language. And I am sorry if you are offended by that.

Now, with reflection as part of the .NET framework you can now do it in VB.NET, but now we are back to relevant experience of the programmer as to knowing when and how to leverage technology.

but I allways feel some compassion about theese [sic] kind of people with so many lack of "mind ilumination".

I have been careful to include specific examples of the lackings of VB and the conclusions I have drawn about VB development in general and no one has rebutted any of the items I have cited except to say that their feelings were hurt.

No programing language make a good developer...

agreed

But a good developer is the one that can make a good app with any programing language...

AS a corrollary to this argument, there are things you cannot do with VB, therefore a good programmer would not rely on it.
and by reflection: a programmer that relies on VB is not a good programmer!
Smile g-d damn it!!! I am just trying to ruffle your feathers! You act like I just told you there is no Santa Claus!!!

This isn't the right thread to ask your Visual Studio question in, but I've a suspicion outbursts like "learn to program!!!" directed at the countless people on this board who make a living writing VB won't do you any favours when it comes to answers.

Point well taken. . .

Still, my advice to new programmers is don't build a dependence on VB. Learn to program with a robust language.

When I say learn to program, I mean learn to program in general. Take courses that deal with technique and practices that don't teach the specifics of particular language.

Same thing with OS's and RDBMS. learn what an OS is in general/Learn what an RDBMS is in general, therefore you can work on any platform. Its just a matter of picking up a manual to determine how Linux manages processes or Oracle handles locks.

Just like figuring out how VB6 handles variables of class types is just a matter of looking in the help file. . .

OH NO! VB6 can't do class types!!!!

BTW. . . did I tell ya? VB Sucks!!!

so back to my original problem. . do I have to create an Add-in project???? now that would really suck!! Is there a visual studio forum that someone could point me to?

Joe Mamma . . .

PS Don't forget rule 62!!! you do know rule 62, dont you???

 

[TechnoTone]

I am designing some aspx forms that have a common set of properties and components on them (a template for lack of a better term). I want to add my base template to the list of forms that are available when I select 'Add New Item.' In delphi this was done by saving your template to the code repository. I am sure there is a way to do this in VS, I just haven't been able to find it.

Would you not do this using inheritance?

 

[PlausiblyDamp]

Delphi may or may not have been a better language - never used delphi myself but I have heard good things about it.
However many people have made software in VB6 that has been a sucess (both in terms of functionality and comercially i.e. the developers made a living from the software). I am not saying this isn't true of Delphi just that it happened to VB developers.
I myself have met many talented and intellegent VB developers who most certainly did understand how to program, the benefits of a good design and OO principles - these are not skill exclusive to Delphi programmers.

I do feel however that you attitude has definately been perceived as arrogant and abrasive without any provacation whatsoever. As Divil pointed out before you seem to be intent on insulting the majority of board members in a short a period of time as possible and as such have hardly earned the respect of the community here. This attitude along with inaccutate comments about languages and then tagging requests for help at the end of a long unrelated thread is probably not going to get you the answers you seek....

However in a show of goodwill have you looked here in this forum's code library for an example of how to use aspx pages and templates?