School courses: Bad situation.. need some advice.

[wyrd]

Feel free to reply with "moron." But at least provide some advice if you do. :)

 

Okay.. here's my school history in a nutshell;

 

- Took GED in junior year of high school and got a few jobs.

- Quit jobs to play on the internet.

- Started school (junior college) taking 1-3 classes a semester doing computer graphics. My intent was to get a certificate then head off and get a job.

- 1 unit away from a certificate in computer graphics I switched over to computer science.

- Started taking beginner programming courses.. but only 1 per semester.

- Finally decided I need to stop playing games 24/7 and do something with my life, so 2 semesters ago I started going full time (4 classes a semester). Again, taking comp sci courses (programming mostly).

- Last semester I finally (after about 4 or 5 years of junior college.. I can't remember) finished my Computer Graphics certificate and also got a Computer Programmer Specialist certificate (yay).

 

See the problem? 4 years, no general ed (except 1 philosophy class). I've taken all core classes and just need to finish up general ed to get 2 associates degrees (comp graphics & comp sci).

 

Seems easy enough right? Just go full time for another year and no problem. Wrong. I haven't taken a placement tests for writing, reading and math. Easy enough, just take the darn things and get on with it.. right? Wrong again. When I got out of high school I was getting a D in geomatry and don't remember ANYTHING about math (this includes basic algebra). NOW do you see the problem?

 

To get an associates in comp sci I need calc 2. Placement tests end in 2 weeks for the upcoming semester. Worst case is I get shoved in the math for dumbies class (1+1 = 2). Best case is I study (trying) and self teach myself at the very least algebra, and get placed in algebra. Either way, best case, we're talking AT LEAST 2-3 years for me to get up and hopefully pass calc 2.

 

I'm 22 now (23 in nov). I figure by the time I even get an associates degree I'll be 25 or 26 (25 for comp graphics and 26 for comp sci). By the time I'm done with a BS degree I'll probably be near 30. :(

 

Did I mention this was all for an associates degree? I'm not even talking BS here. :(

 

So, other then suggestions (if you're willing to provide any on this horror story).. I have a few questions.

 

- What are the chances of getting a programming job with a pathetic certificate.. but the will to want to leave this house and get my own?

- What are the chances of getting a programming job w/ no knowledge in math what-so-ever?

 

I'm this (| |) close to giving up and just applying for some tech support job. At least I'd finally have some $$ and be able to move out of the house.

 

Feel free to print this out and give it to your kids on what NOT to do.

[Heiko]

I absolutely don't know about the situation in the US, but for Germany I'd say:

 

-> Pathetic certificate => no job as a perm.

 

For the general world I'd say:

 

-> no math => no interesting programming assignments

(but also: good in programming => probably good in math, too)

 

BUT

 

there *is* a market for freelance computer programmers.

Have you tried this? It would probably require you not to move out of the house for one or two more years (to see if the kite is flying). But when you business runs, when you deliver, when your service and products are good, nobody asks for your education.

[Nerseus]

I can honestly say that I don't care what math anyone has on their resume. I look at experience (for placement), ability to learn (subjective per the interview process) and personal skills (relating to other team members).

 

I took a lot of advanced math but I've not once used it in anything I do (no calculus for sure). The higher math is good for analysys in case you're working on some super program that may take longer to run than to write and you need to analyze your algorithm for efficiency OR if you're writing software for the scientific community where the math is the focus of the application.

 

Now for graphics, I'm surprised your classes didn't go into a lot of geometry/trig type of discussions. At the very least, SIN, COS, and some other "simple" math for calculating angles of normals and where a line intersects a plane, etc.

 

One final word of advice. If you feel like you could learn more from school, you might consider staying. If you're only staying to say "I got the degree", it might not be worth it. Some jobs (government mostly) may require a BS or associates degree for the job, but most private sector companies just want someone that's good. Now if you don't have any experience AND you don't have a degree, then you'll have to sell yourself more (very charismatic in the interview, let them know you LOVE programming and are willing to learn fast). An entry level position will quickly turn into more (in a year or two) if you're enthusiastic about learning. It's not uncommon to get large increases in pay and skills in a matter of 2 or 3 years, often getting to 40k or more with just a few years of experience.

 

Good luck!

 

-Nerseus

[wyrd]

(but also: good in programming => probably good in math, too)

 

Doesn't seem to be true in my case. Unless of course I'm to ignorant to accept the fact that I'm a sucky programmer.

 

Now for graphics, I'm surprised your classes didn't go into a lot of geometry/trig type of discussions. At the very least, SIN, COS, and some other "simple" math for calculating angles of normals and where a line intersects a plane, etc.

 

Most people wonder about this. It isn't 3D graphics like you're thinking, it's more traditional.. graphical art. Photoshop, Illustrator, Corel Draw, etc. The certificate/degree has to do with photo manipulation, text manipulation, logos, advertisements, etc. No 3D stuff.

 

If you're only staying to say "I got the degree", it might not be worth it.

 

I'm not here for the degree because I want the degree, I'm here because I NEED the degree. Unless I'm looking in the wrong places, just about everyone wants a BS for entry level. I can't get experience until I get a job. BS Degree -> Job -> Experience -> Real Job. Is my reasoning a bit flawed? 10 years ago I wouldn't of needed a degree of sorts (study shows 60% of hired programmers didn't have a degree), but since the 'net boom there's been so many programmers coming out of college with degrees.. how can I compete without having one myself?

 

I suppose I could start applying for jobs without experience or a degree, and hopefully they'll judge me off of programs that I've made (I'd have to work on that a bit more). And no I'm not talking about dinky little school projects. The problem is if I take of school and miss a semester I could end up in a worse position then what I'm currently in. By taking continuous classes I graduate based on the '98 catalog (the year I started going). If I don't go for a semester I'll have to graduate based off of the new catalog (which requires slightly more classes compared to 5 years ago).

[Heiko]

I think you are quite right.

 

For most entry level jobs a degree is a must. At least that is the situation over here. But I would not ignore what Nerseus said:

 

A convincing work history, a convincing persona, that will get you the job as well. You need to sell yourself better. And differently, too.

 

What are your current tactics of finding a good position?

[wyrd]

Current tactics? I've been going to school. :p I'm just looking for advice on my current situation.

[quwiltw]

What are your current tactics of finding a good position?

Just to put my 2 cents, I think this is a key point. I think with a Bachelors degree, you've got a better chance of getting a cold interview. If you have other ways of getting into the interview other than mass-mailing the resume, then you're probably on equal footing with anyone else applying. If a person makes it to my office for an interview, I ask the same questions whether they have a degree or not and by the end of the interview the only thing I really care about is whether I believe they know what they're talking about or not. Having said that, my boss is more concerned with what there bill rate will be so he has different motivations that have less to do with true knowledge.

[wyrd]

Since the whole resume/interview thing came up..

 

What kind of media is acceptable when sending in a resume with sample work attached? Would a regular CD be ok?

 

Also out of curiousity.. if you looked at a resume with no degree on it, but it had sample work attached of what they've done, would you bother looking?

 

Nerseus:

I forgot to mention, if you look at my icon it'll give you a better idea of what type of graphical art I'm talking about. The larger image of it was done for one of my school projects. The icon is small but maybe if you squint you can see it. :) If you actually care all that much I can upload the real image for you and you can take a look... but I'm sure the icon will give you an idea.

Edited June 27, 2003 by wyrd

[mutant]

I dont know much about this topic but I remember reading something about jobs in a game developing company, they said that CDs are a good way to show you skills so CDs should be okay to attach to your resume.

[jfackler]

Wyrd,

Some philosophical thoughts (put whatever adjective you like in place of "philosophical" if you so desire).

As you know, I'm an old guy. Went to school forever. College was 4 years, medical school 4 years, residency 4 years....finally got a real job when I was 30. Had a lot of jobs during that time to pay the bills; started out working in grocery stores, washed cars at a local car lot, I was a radio announcer/personality (yeah a dj) in the early 70's, built houses, roofed buildings, worked as a resident adviser in the college dorms to offset the cost of room and board, did high temperature chemistry research for a glass manufacturer, even sold chevrolets for a while before I started working in the medical world. My first "doctor" jobs were doing history and physicals and working in a planned parenthood doing pap smears and handing out birth control pills in the evening after working in the hospital as an ob/gyn resident all day. During residency, I went to night school for two years, working on my MBA until my wife was pregnant with our second baby and begged me to stop (yeah I had time to get married and occasionally procreate). Some pretty crappy jobs, some fun jobs, but always employeed, always going to school. The money wasn't great but the effort was enough to convince the bankers I was serious about the education and they kept lending me money to pay for school. In the 70's the interest rates on some of the loans was 12% or more. I was oblivious. Only had the end in sight and I would do whatever it took to get there. Today I look back and like Ner, I don't use much of what I studied during those years (I've got a math minor and a BS in Chemistry with an ACS degree, we did things like derive Heisenbergs uncertainty principle over a semester...completely useless but bizarrely cool). The thing I did learn was that I could learn, and once learned, the knowledge was mine forever. Each little success lead to others. I learned no one else would or could acheive for me. My parents discouraged me from going to school. Thought I should get a job and make a living. I do that now, and then some. (Just re-read what I've written so far....sounds like one of those "I walked ten miles in the snow uphill both ways" kind of stories...god I sound like a really old guy.) Anyway, the point I guess, is that I was just a punk...still am in a lot of ways. Spent a lot of time lying under a 1965 Chevrolet Malibu working on the engine, smoking Winstons and drinking gallons of Miller long necks in a little farm town in Ohio where my Dad also grew up. My folks didn't go far, they both still live within thirty miles of where they were born. The only thing that I have that is different from the kids I went to school with (who are still in that small town) is my education and a boat load of desire to get to the next level.

Complete something.

Start by completing the education.

It'll mean a lot to the people you are want to be employeed by.

It'll also mean a lot to you in terms of your self confidence.

It'll be the first step toward being the guy others want to impress so they can get the job.

Of course you can do it.

 

Jon

[wyrd]

jfackler:

 

Where did you find the motivation? I just can't seem to find any, which is how I got into this mess in the first place. I'd be perfectly happy doing Quality Assurance (Q&A) for a gaming company. Then again, who wouldn't? What I would probably rather do is program games.

 

Here's how it is.. DigiPen requires calculus to get in. If you are unaware of what DigiPen is, it's a gaming college; http://www.digipen.edu. Don't be throwing up your hands, cursing or laughing at me either, it's a real college which offers real degrees. If you don't believe me then check out their required courses for a BS. You can get a AS and/or BS in comp sci and also AS in computer graphics (3D gaming graphics, not the same as what I did at the public college I'm at).

 

If I had the math knowledge I would straight up go get a fat loan and head on over to apply right this instant, without thinking twice. Unfortunately I don't, and I can accept that becoming a game programmer may just not be within my reach unless I want to be 30 by the time I graduate (if it was a PHD I could justify wasting a 3rd of my life.. but it's not). What I can't do is find the motivation to just get a BS so I can do software (or any other) programming for the rest of my life. I like reading books about different languages, design, coding, programming philosophy, unfortunately when it comes to actually programming I just can't seem to force myself to do it. Unless of course, it was a game.

 

The sad part is.. if there wasn't a gaming drought I probably wouldn't be sitting here on these forums, and I certainly wouldn't be giving a darn about school. I'd be playing games. God help me when World of WarCraft is released. Here's to hoping I don't get accepted for beta.

 

You know there was a point when I seriously considered becoming a writer so I could write reviews and articles on games, and perhaps eventually storylines for a game company.

[jfackler]

You're not in a mess, you're in a life. You make thirty sound like antiquity. Thirty isn't old but it might seem like it if you spend all those years being tortured. You are bright and have unlimited choices and few responsibilities. Your choices are not truely limited, by anything more than your decision not to pursue your desires. If you want it, go for it. If it costs you a few years, think about what you'll gain. There's also no rule you can't live during those few years. Keep gaming, learn to write game code, get married, have kids, or not, just keep the other thread going...i.e. the education. The time will fly by and you'll accomplish the unthinkable: you'll have fun on the way to fullfilling your dreams. Give up the whole angst thing, make a decision, kick some a , refuse to be a victim...especially of yourself.

 

Jon

[DiverDan]

If another old guy can offer his two cents worth...for free. Wyrd, you seem to be a really neat guy. Please stay in school. Reaquaint yourself with math, it won't be all that hard for you as it uses the same logic as your art...yeap the same stuff. I personally have a BSIE and MFA degrees, not enough money or time for the Phd, but would have loved it. That's degrees in both engineering and fine art, with commerical art thrown in. Eventhough some of the courses' agenda might seem trivial at the time, I'll bet that the analysis logic and precedures that Jon used in college he's still using today, just different problems. As he stated, the knowledge is his forever. So will yours.

 

As for needing a degree...my best industrial technication only had a high school education, yet he conversed and trained BSME's, BSEE's, BSES's and a couple of Phd's in matters of chemistry, physics, thermodynampics, etc. with our solvent distillation and fractionation automated systems. Desire and ability far out weight "book learning". Degrees are for opening the first door, ability keeps them open and opens more doors.

 

Please stay with it,

Dan

 

You can only benefit from knowledge. You can only succeed from ability and desire.

[wyrd]

Well.. then I guess there's only one thing I need to do. I'll be sure to check in every once in a while to see what you guys are up to.

[hog]

Wyrd, I gave my resume a while ago but for you here it is again:)

 

I'm 39, left school with absolutely nothing, got a apprenticeship in sheet metal working when I left school at 16. Gave that up after two weeks to become a delivery mans assistant. Gave that up to bottle paints for the motor industry. Took a year out dossing until my parents kicked my arse and so got a six week temp contract humping parcels into lorries.

 

That was 20 years ago and I' still here:) I have worked my way up as I found a flare for programming which started in 1985 on the ZX81 then onto the Commadore64 writing silly graphics programs for my son.

 

My employer realised my hunger to learn programming and now I have my own office, laptop supplied by work, am on £25K and get to do my hobby all day.....programming:):)

 

Yes I do know I landed on my feet and I do know that there are plenty of programmers out there earning more than me, but I'm happy doing what I do, on a reasonably good salary and a reasonably secure job.

 

I always think back to my teachers that said I was a waste of space and think yeah......look at me now arseholes:)

[wyrd]

I did some checking and found out that I only need to complete pre-calc to get my AA in Comp Sci. Lucky enough, I only need to have completed pre-calc for DigiPen admission requirements as well. I should hopefully make it into math 90 at the very least (algebra). With some good fortune I'll make it into 121 (beginning of pre-calc.. which is a 2 semester course, math 121 and 122).

 

Looks like things aren't as bad as I originaly thought.

[jfackler]

Seldom are things as bad, or as good, as we can imagine.

[Nerseus]

My simpler advice:

 

Step 1: Figure out what you *really* want even if it seems hard

Step 2: Do it © 2003 Nike

 

Sounds simple, but it sounds like right now Step 1 is getting cluttered with about 5 choices. You need some way to figure out priorities and that's something only YOU can decide.

 

-Nerseus

[dsgreen57]

Found an interesting article flipcode.com related to whether to quit or stay in college.

 

http://www.flipcode.com/interviews/school/

[wyrd]

dsgreen57: Nice article, thanks.

 

Nerseus: Isn't it "Just Do It" ? :) Also there is only one choice right now, finish AA and AS degrees for comp sci and comp graphics. From there I will decide to either head off to DigiPen or a regular University.

[Nerseus]

It sounds like you'd be happiest going to DigiPen, even if it means the tough road of getting through calc and differential equations and such... but only you know for sure.

 

-Nerseus

[wyrd]

I might be happiest at DigiPen, I might not. I'm a very strange person, I go in spurts. One week I'll be interested in programming games, the next SQL apps, then the next .. who knows.

 

My goal right now is AA/AS degrees. Depending on the situation I may apply at the Livermore Lab here in California for an internship next summer. One of my previous teachers works there and said I could put him on my resume as a reference (for internship only, of course). The only problem is that they use Java and C++ as their primary programming languages and I'm not to familiar with either.

[ThePentiumGuy]

yo liste, i may be 14, but heed this advice but the best thing to do is stay in school, work on math, learn calc. Just motivate yourself, go wherever you feel happiest ..

 

im thinkin about going to digipen for courses this summer (they offer it for ppl entering 9th grade)

anyway, i enjoy playing games, which is why i enjoy programming them

 

posted by wyrd

The only problem is that they use Java and C++ as their primary programming languages and I'm not to familiar with either.

 

 

i hate both too, but just do your best and try to learn them

also, as you learn them, try to develop applications that you want..

for instance like 3 years ago(when i was 11) i was learning vb because i wanted to learn to make games... thats what motivated me and inspired me

 

i spent countless hours burying myself in books, trying to learn VB(6) it was hard(cuz i was 11) but i learnt a lot.. so, challange yourself to make applications that you want, for instance, lol i had trouble trying to make a calculator ;) then i tried making, "whack a moe" then i made "pong" now im making mario.. ;) life's a mess, but dont let that throw you down :)

 

my point is, work at it, and you'll acheive it..(and stay in school too :))

Edited July 27, 2003 by John

[wyrd]

So.. it begins. I took my math assessment test and got a 27/45. I wanted to get a 30/45 which would of placed me where I wanted to be. I'm a little annoyed because they only gave us 50 minutes to complete 45 questions, and I ran out of time before I could answer 10 of 'em. Let me break it down..

 

Math 90 - Elementry Algebra, non-transferable math.

Math 121 - College Algebra, transferable math.

Math 122 - Trig/Geo, transferable math.

.. then Calc, Calc1, Calc2, etc.

 

I placed inbetween Math 90 and Math 121, and I wanted Math 121 because it's one of two courses required for pre-calc. I was 3 points off from placing in it. The good news is it's at least transferable math. The bad news is it's not needed for me to graduate. I need Math 121 and Math 122 before I can get my AA in Computer Science. In short, I'm not satisfied and am going to petition to get into Math 121. With my Computer Science background it shouldn't be a problem. However, if that fails, I'm not without a backup plan, as I will retest at a higher level which will insure my placement in Math 121 so long as I get 15/40 (but it's a hard test).

 

I suppose I should pat myself on the back. After 5 years I remembered NOTHING about math and had to buy a self-learning book for Algebra and go through it. I went through the entire book and these are the results I got. Two weeks of pain and suffering over a math book is what it took. Funny enough, it's the first book I've read cover to cover in a long time.

 

I will not be denied Math 121.

[jfackler]

I will not be denied Math 121.

 

You go boy.

 

Jon