Apologies

[sjn78]

Just wanted to say I had no intentions on starting an argument from the last thread "Who's sick of hearing this?" I didn't get a chance to post again on the thread, but I won't even bother to say what my thoughts are. Too many people have their own opinions on the topic and try to force it upon others.

 

I should of known that it would veer off like it did, even though most of the posts weren't even remotely close to what I first asked.

 

Anyway, VS.Net Professional arrived on my doorstep today and now I have something new to play with!!!

 

Has anyone downloaded the 2005 beta edition yet? I got it last week it is seems pretty good, considering its beta. I especially like the properties window that can be flipped over to the events for that control.

[Volte]

I haven't seen the beta (I played with an early alpha awhile back that was too buggy to do anything with), but it sounds like the properties/events thing you mentioned has been in C# since the beginning. :)

[sjn78]

http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/vs2005/

 

Can download whatever language you use. Download was about 50mg, thats VS itself with no documentation.

 

But be careful, once you install it, all of the file associations linked to your current VS version, will be associated with VS2005.

[Denaes]

can 2003 and 2005 exist peacfully (file extensions aside) on a computer?

 

Can 2005 target Framework 1.1 (rather than 2.0 beta)?

[sjn78]

I had no troubles regarding framework versions. Both worked using their own framework it would seem.

 

Nothing has blown up yet anyway!!

[Denaes]

I set it to install last night, woke up to a Restart screen, restarted and there was no VB2005.

 

I did do the SQL Server 2005 and MSDN as part of the package.

 

I'm retrying right now...

[samsmithnz]

For a flame war I thought it was pretty average actually... but I blame vs.net for bringing to two groups (C and VB) closer together than they've ever been.

 

The only comment I wanted to make is the languages don't need semi-colons and case-senstivity anymore, so why do they still have them?

[sjn78]

Well, I believe that people choose the language that suits their own style and needs. But to criticise other languages because you don't personally like them is something people do I guess.

 

For example, the majority of people would speak english right? Are you going to tell someone if they speak french, german or spanish that their language is not good enough because they don't speak english? Hell no, thats what they know best and use to communicate with. Programming is no different. You tell the machine to do something in the language you are comfortable with. If you can speak more than one language, good for you, it shows you have put in an effort to step outside your so called native language to expand your horizons.

 

Going back to what I said in this post earlier about getting VS Pro today. I am going to have a look at some of my VB projects and convert them to C#, for the fun of it. So far all the differences I have found is the syntax in declaring variables/objects and the semicolon at the end of each line. I am sure there are more changes than that, but thats what experimenting and learning is all about.

[Denaes]

Well' date=' I believe that people choose the language that suits their own style and needs. But to criticise other languages because you don't personally like them is something people do I guess.[/quote']

 

Hey, it's ok to criticise other languages. It's ok to have your opinions, preferences and why you do/don't like something.

 

For example, the majority of people would speak english right? Are you going to tell someone if they speak french, german or spanish that their language is not good enough because they don't speak english? Hell no, thats what they know best and use to communicate with.

 

Not fully accurate. The analogy would be closer to telling others that their language is inferior and anything to come from it is crap until it's translated into something worthwhile. The language isn't even capable of quality writing/speech and those that use it are inherintly less of a speaker/writer for using that particular language.

 

Programming is no different. You tell the machine to do something in the language you are comfortable with. If you can speak more than one language, good for you, it shows you have put in an effort to step outside your so called native language to expand your horizons.

 

I fully agree.

 

 

Going back to what I said in this post earlier about getting VS Pro today. I am going to have a look at some of my VB projects and convert them to C#, for the fun of it. So far all the differences I have found is the syntax in declaring variables/objects and the semicolon at the end of each line. I am sure there are more changes than that, but thats what experimenting and learning is all about.

 

Honestly when I have to look at C# sourcecode to help me with something VB, I get angry. Not because it's C#, but because the way they declare things is much nicer. Many things in C# seem tighter and less "fluffy". That also means it's much less intuitive and requires more work to learn/get used to.

 

I also don't see a reason for the semicolon other than to cap a line... Maybe it's the VB in me, but I'd rather use a single character once in 20 lines to make a continuation than 19/20 lines to prevent continuation. I guess it was mainly habit in who they were trying to appeal towards.

[Nerseus]

The Visual Studio 2005 technical preview can sit side by side with 2003, but from my experience, the help integrated into both (not good for me). I had 2003 on first then put on 2005 and installed 2005's help. Whenever I pressed F1 in 2003, it brought up the 2005 help. I haven't tried the new VB 2005 release.

 

I found the 2005 technical preview to be a bit buggy, but very nice in terms of features (language, Visual Studio, and more). The refactoring alone would be worth an upgrade in my mind.

 

-ner

[Joe Mamma]

Anything to come from it is crap. . .

The language isn't even capable of quality writing/speech. . .

Those that use it are inherintly[sic] less of a speaker/writer for using that particular language.

Its funny how what is said is not what is heard. I know on my part I tried hard not to use absolutes in anything I said. Simple generalities are what I meant.

 

Any language in the hands of a goober will sound like giberish.

Many complex languages make some of the best sounds in the world.

 

It all depends on who is using the language.

 

But to make a comparison between Spoken Word and Programming Language is IN MY OPINION, inappropriate.

 

We are talking about (philosophically not technically) Subjective vs. Objective

esthetics here.

 

The beauty of an oration comes from the true nature of said words and the affect produced. (Subjective)

 

Where as the beauty of a programming Language comes from its ability to be effective at the same time being "undistorted by emotion or personal bias and based on observable phenomena" [websters def. on objective].

 

If we qualify observers as being those who adhere to the Rumbaugh/Booch/Jacobson OOP paradigm it soon becomes clear why VB, as alot of people use it, has an inherent 'ugliness' for lack of a better term.

 

The problems with VB aren't overcome by its not needing ";" as a command delimiter. As a matter of fact, some of VB's ugliness is that whitespace is part of its construct. That, in and of itself, makes it inferior, I.E. having to type endif just because, for clarity I put a carriage return after a control contention.

 

Now, I will grant you that most of my Vb'ing has come frome rewriting other peoples code. And that leaves me biased. Still, having come from a devout OOP background, I can see how Vb as a language can hinder a journeyman's ability to be a concise developer.

 

If you are a strict VB'er, I urge you to open your mind and dig into some other languages. Once the paradigm 'clicks' you will see what Archangel and I are talking about.

 

There is no venom meant here. I do program in VB when the need arises, Yes, I am sure I could become more versed in its ideosyncracies. But most of the time, I find myself pulling sections out and replacing them with C# (Thank god for .NET!!!) Yes, I do sometimes get grief from the code owners, but I can usually justify my actions.

[Denaes]

I found the 2005 technical preview to be a bit buggy, but very nice in terms of features (language, Visual Studio, and more). The refactoring alone would be worth an upgrade in my mind.

 

-ner

 

I'm sorry to sound like an idiot, but when you say that "refactoring alone would be worth an upgrade" are you talking about the VS.Net being refactored (rewritten and streamlined) or new features to aid the developer in refactoring?

[divil]

The latter. C# has great refactoring tools in VS 2005. VB gets Edit & Continue.

 

Joe Mamma:

 

Interestingly, although I prefer C# to VB, the whole "End If" thing is one area where VB syntax wins. If you're looking at some code and all you can see is lines and lines of collapsing curly braces, that doesn't tell you very much about what exactly they're the close of. Especially when whatever it is, is offscreen. In VB you always know what your closing statement is the close of.