Getting paid to program

[morsnowski]

Hi all,

 

I don�t know much about being a contractual programmer but I certainly know about project work because that�s what I make my living with. One of the first thing you'll have to do is create a PDS (project data sheet) there are plenty out there, just make sure the version you are going to use has a risk matrix on it. In this document you are going to define the scope, associated risk, key assumption and external (customer) dependencies of the project. I personally don�t start working on any project or detailed planning as long as this document isn�t signed by all stakeholders.

The defined scope within this document is what the customer gets, if he wants more then he is going to pay, this would then usually be on an hourly bases. Make sure the customer understands that everything he puts onto the table straight away can be implemented with not to much additional cost but everything that comes in late during the project will cost him a little fortune.

Don�t know who said it before but yes I would draw up a contract or a detailed project description before even firing up any development tool because that�s your money as well.

 

Mike

 

[edit]

one word on rent-a-coder, i won one bid there and that healed me straight away, you can't get hold of these people and most of them don't know what they want, that applies to IT pro's just as well as to college students

[/edit]

Edited April 15, 2004 by morsnowski

[Arch4ngel]

Didn't have the time to win.

I offer my service for 1... asked 7$... and it was given to

 

Name: hungheykwun

(see ratings) in Kuantan, Pahang

Malaysia (see local date/time)

Well... you see that they are looking for cheap coding !

Okkk okkkk... I didn't know how he charged... he is well experienced...

How much do you think he asked ?

 

I think about 4 or 5 dollars ...

Damn.... Rent-A-Coder could get lost in the web an I'll don't give a ****.

 

:D

[georgepatotk]

Arch4ngel,

 

I am strongly disagree with what you had been talking about. USD-5 an hour is damn a lot in Malaysia. Do you know, most of the professionals in Malaysia could only earn USD-25 a day. And for those cheap labor, it is only USD-7/10 a day.

 

Just imagine, what is the different between professional and cheap labor in malaysia. DON'T simply judge with how muh they are getting paid. This is because USD is big and our curreny in Malaysia is low. And further more, our living expenses is low as well. "With your low pay, we could have a high life style in Malaysia"

 

So, please.... people who are getting that paid don't deserve this critisism.

[Arch4ngel]

Ya... maybe... but I think that compagny all "export" their programming job to other country where their currency is very low so they don't have to pay too much for a program.

 

(Same thing with Nike, remember ? Building their shoes elsewhere like Mexico ?)

 

We call this universalization (is this the right term ?). Anyway they try to pay less for a service that won't cost less when it goes to us.

 

Think also that they got the money to pay other program much more than they do... and they don't do it.

 

I think programming is becoming cost related much more than everything else.

 

Anyway It's my opinion no ?

[tuxp3]

Thoughts on Software Piracy

 

Personally i think that software that can reach a LARGE audiance is the most profitable for a programmer, because the amount of people that can purchase your software isnt just limited to one company or person, and all the code you make is yours!

 

Now the issue of software piracy comes into play:

 

Say you wrote a program and sold it for $10

say 100 people buy it, you make $1000

Now what if 15,000 download it for free (piracy) but only 10% buy it, you still make $1500

So software piracy can be helpful...

(just an example)

 

so anyways doing custom jobs is good for quick money but making comsumer software is more profitable in the long run, IMO

 

Thats just my 2 cents

 

Thanks, Andrew

[Joe Mamma]

Ya... maybe... but I think that compagny all "export" their programming job to other country where their currency is very low so they don't have to pay too much for a program.

I believe the real money is in Ad-Hoc integration.

Everyone has super apps on their desktops, like Office, Lotus Notes, etc. . .

But few use them in a streamlined manner.

Overseas Software Sweatshops can crank out these super apps but they just overwhelm the end users. The end users will ALWAYS pay good money for quick and easy to use mission critical reporting and analysis mini-apps that integrate with their existing desktop systems.

 

Now to do this right, it demands the programmer use sound technique in order to aggregate these mini-apps over time into 'toolsets.'

[Denaes]

A Good Reason to Sign a Contract

 

I was asked to "convert" (play with it and make a new app that interfaces with the old database and has the same features) an old software app (that was written for the company by an old employee who is nolonger there) to VB.Net and stay on as a freelance programmer to alter it as needed as they resell it. The pay is 100% proportional to what it brings in and how much work I do on it. IE, if only a sales guy and I are involved and it makes 10,000 then I'd get $6,000.

 

Bear in mind, this is my first real work after graduating college.

 

Stupidly, I did not get a contract.

 

I'm working on it, get about 3/4ths the way done and they start talking about improvements. A few companies are "demoing" the old program and want to pay money for a customized version of it (mine). The guys I work for start to discuss future plans. Fine, I can give input on that.

 

Then they start telling me to impliment them on what I'm working on. Hold on here. I'm replicating the origional first. One thing at a time. Now it's the Origional w/ a few modifications. This puts me back about 50% done as I had to redo a lot of ADO.Net properties.

 

I go to a meeting the other day and they look over my 90% done program. "Great. This company we sold it to wants these changes and have been herassing us for them for about 6 months" ***!? Why would you sell something you don't have and promise them something you havn't asked the programmer to do yet!?

 

So I start talking with the owner who starts asking how long each individual 'enhancement' will take, which I absolutely hate. Sometimes I don't know. If I run into something I don't know how to do, I need to research it (like ADO.Net, I could rewrite this program in like 1/10th the time now that I know it). This is how it goes:

 

"I want this to do something different, to focus on the middlemen instead of the end customers."

"Well it's written for customers, thats what the origional program does"

"How long to change it?"

"About an evenings work" (take into consideration that this isn't my day job and an evening can be anywere from 3-8 hours)

"Ok, I'll consider it done then. Next..."

 

I think to myself "Whatever, I'll do it". Then He's totals everything up. I need it done by friday. Of course he tallied my "Evenings" as nothing. Since it was tuesday night that was out. I have Wed night, thursday and friday night to get it done, or the customers are walking.

 

You think this might have been mentioned a week or two ago? So I could plan my schedule to get it done?

 

It's like having a crappy old car. You're screwed. You have to pay 300 to fix it. You've spent 2,000 on it already, which is all a loss if you don't fix it. So you fix it, but something else comes up. In this case it's time. I've invested A LOT of time on this project. If I just endure a little more I'll hit my payoff.

 

Of course the one smart thing I've done is to sidestep any discussion of me giving them the sourcecode. Theres no contract so as far as I'm concerned, it's mine. They're going to be as dependant on me in the future as I am of them at this moment. They've invested a lot of money to get a working program they can have altered. No source code = No Altering.

 

This is my one bargaining chip with them. Some of the guys are Old Skool programmers, back when the black and green screen was new technologies. I don't think they know enough about .net to decompile it. Heck, I might even compile the whole program if it will prevent them from getting at the code. I don't care if it takes a performance hit.

 

I've been getting random paychecks at random intervals, which confuses me because I'm supposed to be on a % of the profits.

 

I fear them getting my program and just "reselling" it to multiple people without cutting me in on it... which is another reason why I'm very reluctant to give up the source code.

 

And these are good reasons to NEVER take a job (web design, programming, graphics design, layout, etc) without a contract up front.

 

Ask yourself "In what possible way can this go bad/sour?" instead of saying "That will never happen", take my advice and believe that it will. It may not, but act as if it will. Look out for yourself or you'll end up getting suckered into doing more work just to break even or get what you agreed on for the lesser work.