All DotNet Languages Are Equal?

[dragon4spy]

U know? I have a funny story today at visualbasicforum.com. I saw someone (MR.A) trying to tell people about vb.net features and tell people to move to vb.net. Then after that, it turns out to be a big war between that vb.net guy with vb6 guys. At the end, admin decided to delete that thread.

 

Is it a funny story which made by vb6 guys? :D

[samsmithnz]

I didn't relieze there was so much resistance from the VB6 guys. coming from VB6 myself, I was very happy to move up to the next thing, VB6 is a good language (if you know how to use it, which imho most people don't know how), but the features of .NET are fantasitic. I'd never go back and I groan when my boss askes me to have a look at an old vb6 project.

[AlexCode]

I dedn't realize it either... I also came from VB5 -> VB6 too and VB.net its just a "must upgrade to".

I know a lot of developes that stuck on their primitive languages and claim that there's nothing better than that! The claims like this that impress me most are from COBOL developers... :p

 

Ok, now for the Benchmark!

Nicelly donne... it demonstrates that VB.net only looses for C# on I/O but, as they told, the problem it's on the IL compiler not on the language it self...

So, possibly the next version of VB have a better IL compiler... :)

 

Alex :D

[samsmithnz]

The cobol developers are an exception, even the fininical consulting company that I work for uses .NET, but we still have a Vax server for a 20 year old cobol program we've been trying to replace for the last 5 years. but the point is the cobol programmers make a mint.

 

VB6 already seems like VB5 did 4 years ago. A dead language.

 

Also a comment on the VB.NET IO, someone stated that apparently the IO still uses the old vb6 compadiblity methods. I'm not sure if this is true or how it would work (conasidering its supposed to be compiled down to the same code, but if its true it might explain a couple of things.

[divil]

It's human nature to resist change. Every halfway competant vb6 programmer who has successfully made the change agrees it was well worth it.

[dragon4spy]

It seems that many vb6 guys refuse to move to vb.net. They should have realised that moving to vb.net is inevitable. Sooner or later, whether they want it or not, vb6 will be dead (not 100%).

 

As i told you about the thread at visualbasicforum.com, many pro that work for company, tend to wait another 10 years before moving to vb.net. They don't want to migrate to .net because they have 5 years of vb code (millions of line), that is difficult to move, so they'd better wait and see. As we know, it's inevitable so at the end they will migrate to vb.net with 5+10=15years of vb6 code. Em... Why don't they think that 15years of vb6 code is much more than 5years of code. :D It is such a funny story.

 

Microsoft has also announce about the deadline of vb6 support on 31, March 2005.

 

So if they wait 10 years, i'll see how many vb6 guys will struggle to survive. :D

Edited January 11, 2004 by dragon4spy

[samsmithnz]

Microsoft has also announce about the deadline of vb6 support on 31, March 2005.

 

Clarification: http://msdn.microsoft.com/vbasic/support/vb6.aspx

 

According to this site, VB6 will be available until March 2008, but MAINSTREAM support, is dropped in March 2005.

[Joe Mamma]

I happened upon this thread and had to register so I could reply.

 

VB6 bites. I never met a good programmer who uses VB.

 

Most VB prgrammers do not understand the nuances of OOP.

They have never programmed service applications or robust COM components and do not program event/message driven applications. Their applications usually resemble scripts and are very inefficient. NOTE, I haven't met EVERY VB programmer so this is a generalization, but the world is run by heuristics and it will continue to be.

 

Sorry, VB programmers need not apply in my shop.

 

VB.net does compile down to the CLR, but it is still clunky. There are some truly efficient and elegant techniques available in the .NET world you CANNOT, I repeat CANNOT, implement in VB.NET

 

Myself, I am partial to C#, but I am a former Delphi (RIP) devotee and C# has the robustness and flexability that was previously only available in Delphi. And the beauty of C# is that I can show my code to the non programming stakeholder and he can, for the most part, read it and tell me if my algorithms are correct. Still, this is due primarily to my using an effective coding style. One that incorporates the nouns and verbs of the problem domain and not because of the language in which I program.

 

There is no end all be all when it comes to programming languages. A good programmer will be language agnostic. He will simply know how to program. He will have the general skills necessary for effective investgation and be able to leverage any available technology to produce an efficient solution.

 

Key skill required? A formal education in software engineering.

Why? Because he will know the taxonomy of software engineering.

 

He will know is meant by such terms as persitance, serialization, instrumentation, and profiling. He will know when an application will call for these features. He will investigate the various implementations and apply the flavor that will yeild the most efficient approach. Effecient does not always mean fastest execution, but also time to delivery, configuration, documentation and revision. thebeauty of .NET, as far as I can see, is its homogeny.

 

C# might be really smooth fulfilling functional requirement 'A', C++ for functional requirement 'B' and an interop assembly addresses requirement 'C.' Meanwhile, my Distribution manager only knows how to run the VB.NET command line compiler (he uses the command line because he is not a devloper and doesn't need the studio suite, and we are driven by costs) and we are able to deliver the product.

 

Also, keep in mind, there is a category of applications called 'code generators.' Their development is critical in many areas where traditional applications are not adequate. These applications are developed in one language, take input from the user and output a second application customized toward a specific need.

 

My last contract, in the pensions industry, called for an application that had to give the user the ability to input user defined FORTRAN procedures that would perform specific tasks for different end users. This program was devloped in Delphi, and consisted of a skeleton executable with defined points where the users FORTRAN code would be inserted. Why fortran? well actuaries seem to only undestand FORTRAN (you think computer geeks are nerds? ever seen an actuary? they make geeks look GQ) At any rate, the user would manually enter fortran code or a reference to an external DLL at specific 'entry' points, press a button, and the result would be a set of executables and libraries

that implement a truely robust, company specific Retirement Plan software suite. Devolping this application meant knowing FORTRAN, Delphi and general windows programming. Did we know FORTRAN going into the preoject? No,. but we knew we had the skills that would enable us to learn it.

 

To sum it all up. . . VB'ers, learn to program. . . PLEASE! I am sick and tred of having to clean up your code! :p

Edited March 1, 2004 by Joe Mamma

[dragon4spy]

Now prove what vb.net can't and what delphi can do. I agree that vb6 is a bit low class, but it always helpful and also powerful, that why it is the most popular language around.

 

I've never realised that Delphi make any sense. I would choose to learn C++ instead, cos who need delphi then.

[dragon4spy]

Isn't it originated from Pascal? Those command line thing? When I started VB, soon I play with windows forms. It gave me a favor than C++ or Delphi.

[Joe Mamma]

vb.net, I beieve, can do almost everything delphi can. . .

there is a multitude of things that delphi could do that VB6 cannot.

 

But this isn't about one language over another, it has to do with the type of programmers who use VB. VB programmers do not have experience with using callbacks. I bet you don't use alot of custom events/delegates in your applications, do you? While you can do callbacks in vb.net, you couldnt safely use the AddressOf operator in vb6 when refering to class methods. This means a VB programmer has an extremely limited scope of experience and probably doesn't understand how to develop robust event driven applications. And windows is an event driven platform.

 

I bet you have never developed a windows service, have you?

 

A VBer only knows how to enable and disable menu items, and doesn't understand the beauty of being able to redefine the behavior of a menu item at run-time.

 

Again. . . VB'ers need not apply.

 

joemamma

[Joe Mamma]

I've never realised that Delphi make any sense. I would choose to learn C++ instead, cos who need delphi then.

 

The reason we used delphi was that it gave us the robustness of C++ but was less symbolic.

 

One thing a good programmer must remember is that he must deal with non programmers. When in the real-world, specificlly developing COTS integration applications, he will often find himself interfacing with the problem domain stake-holders.

 

and efficiency is not just about fast code!!!

 

you see a non-programming finance analyst can easily understand

//delphi

procedure ProcessFile(MyFile: TFileStream)

var

i: integer;

begin

for i := 1 to 100 do

MyFile.Write( FinanceFunction( i ));

end;

 

as opposed to:

// C++

 

void ProcessFile(ofstream MyFile)

{

for ( int i = 1; i <= 100; i++ )

MyFile << FinanceFunction( i );

}

 

He will know that a TFileStream is a file and what 'Write' does. . .

will he know what ofstream is and that << writes to it?

probably not. I want the stake holder to beable to look at my code and say 'yes' thats what I want, with out my having to do much explainingg as to what I am doing.

 

Delphi was a great language. Fast! Dependable! Flexible. But no, I am partial to C# for all the reasons I liked Delphi.

Again, learn to program in general, programming language used is just a mater of taste. . . except when it comes to VB. . . which was tasteless

:p

 

joemamma

[dragon4spy]

VB programmers do not have experience with using callbacks.

It is not true. I'm doing that, even subclassing most of the time.

 

While you can do callbacks in vb.net, you couldnt safely use the AddressOf operator in vb6 when refering to class methods.

AddressOf, normally can't work with class in vb6, but I just do a simple trick to push the limit, to be able to use it in Class. Check pscode.com for my friend code.

 

This means a VB programmer has an extremely limited scope of experience and probably doesn't understand how to develop robust event driven applications. And windows is an event driven platform.

Event dirven applications? Nah! even a novice vb programmer can do that. Only delphiEr like you think this is wonderful. In VB6, APIs handle much of the works.

 

Not only windows is a event driven, but also messages driven. VB6 can handle 'em all.

 

A VBer only knows how to enable and disable menu items, and doesn't understand the beauty of being able to redefine the behavior of a menu item at run-time.

It's so funny this hear this from you, delphiEr. :D What you want to do with menu in runtime, VB6 can do all. Check the attached SuperCode example. Again, it is a common thing in vb6, but is it advanced topic in delphi?

 

 

Ok, :D You are a really novice in vb6. Before you state anything, try learning VB6. I have attached more things that you migh thought limited in vb6.

 

Have you ever hiding your app in Win2K or XP? Can you hide your app away from tasklist? Here is how to do that in vb.

delete a file in use - run an exe hidden - run code in other process' memory new version.zip

Edited March 1, 2004 by dragon4spy

[dragon4spy]

Here you go, the demostration of Menu.

supercode.zip

[AlexCode]

Ok Joe Mamma... don't hit me... but I'm a VB programmer! :)

 

Yeah, in VB6 we couldn't do much great thing we can now with VB.net, just because there was a basic thing that woldn't let us... VB6 wasn't a real OOP languase...

 

It's also true that there's a lot, but really a lot, poor code around and 45% its VB... but I really would put my hands on the fire if the other 45% isn't DELPHI :) .. and I leave 10% off this fight!

 

What I want to say with this is that no matter what the language anyone uses the easyest languages will always be the ones with more programmers and so with more people producing bad code... but also excelent code.

 

I'll quote some sentences here:

I bet you don't use alot of custom events/delegates in your applications, do you? While you can do callbacks in vb.net, you couldnt safely use the AddressOf operator in vb6 when refering to class methods. This means a VB programmer has an extremely limited scope of experience and probably doesn't understand how to develop robust event driven applications. And windows is an event driven platform.

 

I bet you have never developed a windows service, have you?

I asure you that I've already used all that but does that make me a good programmer just for that??

Do the peaople that ear me talking about Remoting have to neal before me cause I'm a good programmer just for that? :)

 

To sum it all up. . . VB'ers, learn to program. . . PLEASE! I am sick and tred of having to clean up your code!

I don't mind this... I take money for this so it's good :)

 

I just want to pass the idea that no language make good developers... it always work the other way...

 

Alex :)

[dragon4spy]

Here it is, the limited thing you have just said.

addressof replacement - no module subclassing.zip

[divil]

Time for a generalisation of my own. Every Delphi advocate I have encountered, including Mr Mamma here, has been passionate about their dislike for VB. I have several theories as to why this is, but my favourite is that VB was always a language/environment with a comparable featureset to Delphi, but VB actually has a job market.

 

VB is very much like Delphi in that it is very much an evolution of a language originally created a long time ago. Pascal was designed as an educational programming language. BASIC was written for beginners to programming.

 

I find it interesting how someone can register on a forum and, within 5 posts, have attacked one of the major languages supported by that forum so many times.

 

Certainly nobody who attacks a particular programming language or makes gross (and not to mention inaccurate) assumptions about the people who use it makes it past an interview with me.

 

Thanks for introducing yourself, Joe Mamma.

[AlexCode]

divil at his best! :)

[Joe Mamma]

VB is very much like Delphi in that it is very much an evolution of a language originally created a long time ago. Pascal was designed as an educational programming language. BASIC was written for beginners to programming.

 

Actually it was 'embraced by' not 'designed for' the educational community. The same qualities that made it ideal for teaching make it ideal for interacting with non-techies in the real world.

 

I find it interesting how someone can register on a forum and, within 5 posts, have attacked one of the major languages supported by that forum so many times.

 

But it is such an easy target! :D

 

I feel like Fred McMurray, VB is Humphry Bogart and we are reenacting the Caine Mutiny.

 

Now that is esoteric.

 

'I tell you, they did steal the strawberries!!!'

 

 

Certainly nobody who attacks a particular programming language or makes gross (and not to mention inaccurate) assumptions about the people who use it makes it past an interview with me.

 

There is nothing inaccurate about my statements.

for Mr. Dragon, who submitted some very neat code that is well documented (bravo!!! do not underestimate the value of good documentation!) you do not understand what I mean by event driven. . . yes you can create events and respond to messages, but you didn't have the event/delegate model until .NET.

 

Because of this, programmers who only know VB lack experience in a vital technique for building robust applications.

 

Dragon's code reinforces my disdain for VB. The same thing could have been done in Delphi in 25% the amount of code, and the code would have needed less documentation, because it would have been straightforward and object oriented.

 

specifically, before .NET, as far as I know, you couldn't do this:

from: msdn.microsoft.com

Design Guidelines for Class Library Developers > Class Member Usage Guidelines > Event Usage Guidelines

Public Class Button
  Private onClickHandler As ButtonClickHandler
  Protected Sub DoClick()
     ' Paint button in indented state.      
     PaintDown()
     Try
        ' Call event handler.
        OnClick()      
     Finally
        ' Window might be deleted in event handler.
        If Not (windowHandle Is Nothing) Then
           ' Paint button in normal state.
           PaintUp()
        End If 
     End Try
  End Sub

  Protected Overridable Sub OnClick(e As ClickEvent)
     If Not (onClickHandler Is Nothing) Then
        onClickHandler(Me, e)
     End If
  End Sub
End Class

 

 

If the language couldn't do that, I had no use for it. . . and if the programmer had never done that, I had no use for them. I know this will illicit responses along the lines of 'But I have done similar' or 'but you don't have to do things that way.' and I say to them, 'you have no idea what I am talking about, I haven't the time to explain it - learn to program!!!'

 

That being said, I love C# and I love the new Visual Studio IDE!!!

 

Thanks for introducing yourself, Joe Mamma.

 

Good to be here. . . now for the reason I initially happened upon this site, maybe you can direct me to an answer. . .

 

I am designing some aspx forms that have a common set of properties and components on them (a template for lack of a better term). I want to add my base template to the list of forms that are available when I select 'Add New Item.' In delphi this was done by saving your template to the code repository. I am sure there is a way to do this in VS, I just haven't been able to find it.

 

thanks for any help

 

joe mamma

 

PS There are plenty of jobs for Delphi developers. . . they are rarely advertised as 'DELPHI DEVELOPER NEEDED'

usually advertised as 'OO/COM DEVELOPER NEEDED'

 

but delphi is dead now that there is C#.NET

[dragon4spy]

but delphi is dead now that there is C#.NET

 

Yes it is! :D But to be accurate, "but delphi was dead long ago that there was .NET".

[Joe Mamma]

Yes it is! :D But to be accurate, "but delphi was dead long ago that there was .NET".

 

Dragon, do yourself a favor and download the trial version of Delphi, if on only for one reason. . .

 

to look at the source code for the VCL.

 

Thats one of the things I miss in Visual Studio, I can't trace into the source inside the referenced assemblies.

 

vb6/vb.net/vb whatever sucks as a programming language. In general , programmers who don't realize that are, in my opinion, not real programmers.

 

joe mamma

[divil]

If the language couldn't do that, I had no use for it. . . and if the programmer had never done that, I had no use for them. I know this will illicit responses along the lines of 'But I have done similar' or 'but you don't have to do things that way.' and I say to them, 'you have no idea what I am talking about, I haven't the time to explain it - learn to program!!!'

 

What you personally may or may not have a use for isn't really relevant - the point is that your personal feelings aside, VB was and is the most popular programming language around. And no, that isn't just for hobbyists.

 

VB ensured its success in the business world by moving in to the COM and natively-compiled world with VB5, so developing business objects and entire n-tier systems suddenly became a real possibility. The savings possible using VB over C/C++ were and still are immense.

 

I'm sure you'll come back saying Delphi offered similar savings, and I won't dispute that because my Delphi knowledge is not broad enough to comment. My only experience is the Delphi business objects I have encountered in the field, and I'll let you know when I do.

 

This isn't the right thread to ask your Visual Studio question in, but I've a suspicion outbursts like "learn to program!!!" directed at the countless people on this board who make a living writing VB won't do you any favours when it comes to answers.

[AlexCode]

I really shouldn't be discussing this anymore but I feel the need to underline a sentence I wrote on my last post... Not that Joe Mamma should deserve any consideration due he's offensive senteces against milions of devellopers but I allways feel some compassion about theese kind of people with so many lack of "mind ilumination".

 

No programing language make a good developer... But a good developer is the one that can make a good app with any programing language...

 

Now just to finish... I don't know what kind of education you had/have from your parents but if you keep treating people that don't use/like/believe the same thing you do like this you won't get many friends :p

 

Alex :p

[Bodybag]

a Friend of mine specialized in delphi and the strange thing is that he is now using vb.net. I can use either C# ot vb.net and i like them both.Alot of people using vb.net can do C++ as well.I used to program in vc myself and lectured borland c++(dos). You are insulting people who know what they are doing.

VB.net rocks!!!

Edited March 3, 2004 by Bodybag

[TechnoTone]

VB is very much like Delphi in that it is very much an evolution of a language originally created a long time ago. Pascal was designed as an educational programming language. BASIC was written for beginners to programming.

Actually it was 'embraced by' not 'designed for' the educational community. The same qualities that made it ideal for teaching make it ideal for interacting with non-techies in the real world.

Not true. See here. "Pascal was was designed, in part, as a teaching language."