MS Certification.

wyrd

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Is it worth getting Certified by MS in something (like application development.. MCAD)? How much weight does MS Certification hold in comparison to like an AS or BS degree when applying for a job?

The reason for the questions is that I'm about a year off from an AS in computer science AND computer graphics, and was wondering if afterwards an MS Certification would be worth it more then another 2 years for a BS or maybe even if it'd be worth it more then the 1 year I'd have to spend getting an AS.

Oh, and anyone know approx. how much it even costs for MS Certificaton? I was browsing the main site and couldn't find any mention of prices anywhere (maybe I just need thicker glasses).
 
First, the certification only costs as much as the tests required to get it. For MCAC there are 4 tests at $100-$150 apiece. For MCSD (the new .NET track) there are 5 or 6 tests (can't remember offhand).

Personally, I've never had of an employer that gave raises, bonuses, etc. based on developer certification. I also can't say that it ever got me a job -- as expected, experience is the major component for getting a job. The certification won't hurt you and some employers have commented that they like it, but it's not a make-or-break thing.

My guess is that if you have no real world experience (no professional computer experience that is), then a certification is not going to get you the job. Without any real experience, getting the MCAD or MCSD is going to be fairly difficult (the solutiosn test is hard). Now if you have a year or two of experience AND a certification, then it will show the employer that you're taking an interest in your job and you like what you do. The certification alone still won't get you the job though :)

If you decide you want to take the tests, I'd suggest waiting til you get on at a company and see if they'll pay for it. Most companies are glad to help out, even buy you books to help study with. If you are applying at a company you can always do some research to see if they want you to have a certification before you come in.

My current employer is hoping that all developers set a goal of getting certified at some point, even if it's a year or more away. I think studying is useful in that it forces you to study some topics that you might otherwise think aren't important and exposes you to things you might otherwise skip. In some cases, those "unimportant" things will come in handy one day.

Another factor of certification, one not mentioned as broadly, is that Microsoft offers special titles for companies that have X number of certified professionals. I don't know the specifics, but they can give companies names like "Partners" and "Solution Partners" and such (I may have the names wrong). For instance, my company has 2 MCSD's (2nd oldest track - MCSD is in it's 3rd incarnation now) and 4 more that are 1 test away. We have some title that our clients like to see (I can't remember exactly, but then again I'm no sales person selling our company to clients :))

I will say that the Solutions test is one of the hardest ever - it involves everything from Database Diagrams to Use Case analysis and more. I liked it, as I think you have to have some real-world experience to pass that test, unlike the language tests (VB6, VB.NET, C#, etc.) that ask too-easy questions (in my mind).

-Nerseus

PS I do most of the interviewing at my company, along with two other people. We can tell pretty quick what people know. If we see a certifaction it's usually "oh, he/she has an MCSD" - a mental note that they've taken the time and effort to pass the exams. It still doesn't mean they know what they're doing :)
 
Nerseus is right on, I have never been asked for my resume, as I work mainly on contracts, although employers do ask for resumes.

They really care more for experience (work history) more than a diploma. But as Nerseus mentioned, if you have no work experience then all you can have in your favor is a diploma.

Basically, if they were to choose between a person with 3 years of school and another with 3 years of work experience, they will pick the latter.
 
Good info.. thanks.

Now since Certficates are out of the way (and pretty much don't help get jobs), I have another question (or, well, maybe 2 more). :)

If I got an AS degree and applied for a job, would it matter where I got the AS from? Say, ITT Tech, Junior/Community College, or a UC? Which brings me to the next question, how much more important is the BS compared to the AS when it comes down to it?

As you can see I'm more or less looking for the best way to get my foot in the door. I know that an internship will help as it's "experience" and I also know that handing in a CD with software that you've written (good stuff, not little school projects) helps. It's just that when it comes to what sort of education do employers want is where I'm a little hazey.

I'm sure a BS is obviously better then an AS (as it should be), but for an entry level job is it a huge deciding factor? You've pointed out that Certificates mean almost diddly, so.. I guess it's just left to the Degree portion of it. :)
 
Degree will help if you want a management position. Depending on the company, some require degree X in order to be say, the Chief Technology Officer.

If you just want to be the techie, then Associates or BS is just fine.

The certifications will help when you post. For instance, I like to specify the fact that I have the top of the line Microsoft Certification - ATBTA (Able to bull through anyting)
 
The reputation of a school is quite important, so a BS from a reputable college does carry some weight.

If you're willing to do an internship, go for it. That'll get your foot in the door, and hopefully you'll meet people in the field that may help you with future job hunts.
 
I disagree with Robby about the type of diploma or school. I interview for developers, nothing else and I don't care what school someone got their diploma from normally - I only care if they know how to do what they're going to be hired to do or are willing to learn. The resume *does* help you get an interview, but it's more about what you know than the credentials you have. And don't put every language you've ever glanced at - it's a personal pet peeve of mine and I always weed out what someone knows from what they don't (or what they saw their co-worker doing that they're taking credit for :))

If it's an entry level position (Junior developer), I'll ask about basic coding questions (can you code a sort, do you konw what recursion means, how do you declare/use an array). Hopefully they'll know the answers regardless of their school.

Nothing against a bigger name university vs. community college but I like a developer that knows how to code (among other things) and preferably enjoys it. I have a monster sized list of questions I use for interviewing, most of which will get skipped depending on the person's experience and the way they answer certain questions. If you want to start a new thread on "What I need to know for an interview process" I'd be happy to throw in a few ideas.

Likewise, if you want a Do's and Don't list for developers, I could add something there, too. One that I *hate* is a picture on the resume - that almost guarantees no interview. Besides the fact that it's cheezy, there are too many legal problems that might come up if we did an interview and turned them down.

I think it was divil that responded to someone awhile back when someone posted their resume for comments. As he pointed out, don't put on personal information (race, religion, etc.).

-Nerseus
 
Nerseus said:
I think it was divil that responded to someone awhile back when someone posted their resume for comments. As he pointed out, don't put on personal information (race, religion, etc.).

That was me. :)

What I said about the rep of a school is to get you into the interview (foot in the door), not so much to land a job.
 
Hmm, heh. I think we sort of danced around my main question a little. I'm getting the impression that certifications and degrees really means ... well, nothing, and it's all about experience.

I've been considering dropping away from the community college (I'm going to Modesto Junior College.. MJC) in search for something more "specialized". At first I was thinking DigiPen (games baby!), but to be honest they expect some nutty things from their students and I have serious doubts as to whether I can hang with the gaming industry. So, turning to software development I was looking at ITT Tech, but they only offer an AS, which is what I can get from MJC. BUT, instead of taking all the useless GE classes (history, philosophy, etc) you have more programming oriented classes. So the question is, should I see if I can transfer over what units I've taken and complete the AS at ITT Tech or stick with the community college MJC and take all them useless GE classes? There's also the question of should I even bother completing the AS and just find some internships?

I can't help but think that maybe deep down I'm just looking for the easy way out. *scratches head* Maybe that's why I like .NET so much compared to C++.

Well, anyway.. enough of my ramblings..

If it's an entry level position (Junior developer), I'll ask about basic coding questions (can you code a sort, do you konw what recursion means, how do you declare/use an array). Hopefully they'll know the answers regardless of their school.

Are you serious? How can someone applying for a programming job not know these things? :eek: Is this a common thing for people hiring entry level folk?

If you want to start a new thread on "What I need to know for an interview process" I'd be happy to throw in a few ideas.

If you're offering free advice to help me out.. you better believe I'll take it. :)

Likewise, if you want a Do's and Don't list for developers, I could add something there, too

Oh, most definitely. I will suck your brain dry if you allow me to. ;)
 
You'd be surprised what people don't know during an interview. If you've ever caught a glimpse of American Idol or heard about it, you know that there are some deluded people out there that think they know more than they do... I've met way too many. :)

(Moving on to the other thread)

-nerseus
 
Nerseus said:
You'd be surprised what people don't know during an interview. If you've ever caught a glimpse of American Idol or heard about it, you know that there are some deluded people out there that think they know more than they do... I've met way too many. :)

(Moving on to the other thread)

-nerseus

Yes, I do watch American Idol (good show :))... and now you've got me insanely worried that I'm one of those deluded people. :eek:
 
My experience is that you will need a qualification of some kind to even get looked at for a large company. If you can find a small company that don't have enough applicants to throw you away without an interview then you might be able to get by without.

However, once you have your first job and you can start building experience the significance of the qualification wanes very quickly.
 
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